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Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi chaps, i am being approached more and more these days from mk1 owners enquiring about fitting the celica 2zz-ge engine into a mk1.So i have decided to do the research into what this conversion would cost including the donor vehicle (smashed celica basically!)
I would be interested in anyones thoughts on this conversion and if you think it would be popular etc. We have never done one yet but it will be a walk in the park for us compared to the v6 and 3s-gte swaps we currently do.
In a nutshell this would give 190bhp, rev like a madman and retain the lightweight characteristics of the stock engine.
All opinions good or bad welcome.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Sounds fun to me! How much are we talking cost-wise?
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Must say Paul, it's somethign I've been thinking about lately too. With more scrapped Elises/Exiges, the engines are probably also nickable from there (though the Celica or Corolla would be cheaper!). Though this does also mean there are further 'upgrade' options available for these engines... (Supercharged 2ZZ-GE... Yummy!!! :D )
Which gearbox would you be thinking of using? A six-speeder such as the C64 (though that's £££s) would be awesome with the high revving 2ZZ. (8600 rpm before you hit the rev-limiter... :) )
Should be in keeping with the character of the 4AGE in many ways which is why I was really warming to the idea. Similar weight, similar characteristics (it seems), both high revving - and both had some input from Yamaha...
TBH I've not got the money for either at the moment, but the 2ZZ was something I was thinking about as an alternative to the beast of a V6!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
hi ben, well i have been looking at celica donor salvage cars (initially we would need to buy complete cars for the transponder/keys and everything we would need) and it looks like under £1000 gets one, i suppose the harder they have been hit the cheaper they are.
I would estimate the actual conversion labour to be somewhere around the £1500 region so i suppose around £2500 supplied and fitted sounds feasible although that is by no means set in stone.If we can find a supplier of 2zz engines that can also give us everything needed (front clips ideally) for under £1000 and we can get the labour down as well then this becomes a very cheap conversion indeed.
Hi max, i would be able to offer this conversion either with the stock mk1 gearbox or with the Mk3 6 speeder although that would ramp the cost of the job up a bit due to needing to redesign the shifter assembly at the stick end (mk1's pull a cable to go into 1st gear,mk3's push the same cable for 1st gear, so it would all be backwards!)
I will get more info on it as time goes by,its only a matter of time before we start doing these as they are a nice modern version of the 4age in every way and will compliment the mk1.It won't be as nuts as the v6 swap or 3sgte, but a great option all the same.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Paul, in order to avoid the transponder/key issue, could you not go standalone? Or do you still need the standard ECU & other bits? (Just a wondering, though I guess going standalone could add a grand to the cost)
I guess that not only will this be a cheaper conversion, but you shouldn't have to cut into any of the other bulkheads, would you? i.e. boot will remain intact and standard size & shape?
Would the changing of the shifter assembly be a huge problem? I remember (the other) Paul coming up with a simple solution for his V8 into a Mk3, so I guess similar could be used for this conversion?
Sorry for all the questions...! Just really have been interested in this possibility for a while - well, since having a ride in a 2ZZ powered Elise... :) I know they're completely different beasts, but still.... Drool!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
The engine can be very easily run on a standalone but it does indeed add a grand or more to the cost, plus mapping time.... so it ends up costing more than a v6 mk1, which is a no brainer if its all out power you are after, v6 every single time.
So to keep the costs down it would be on the stock ecu.Yep PaulM used the same shifter linkage design as i did on his v8 swap,i gave him details of what i did.... we have been helping each other as it goes along.
The entire boot wall would remain intact, nothing at all would be cut on this conversion.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
After having a good look around i have spotted this one on ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2002-TOYOTA-CELIC ... 286.c0.m14
Something like this is absolutely perfect for the project, so donors are certainly out there.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
sounds like a great engine to go in the mk1, and should appeal to those wanting the revvy NA route, with a more modern engine.
good power and weight etc :+:
not for me though, when you can almost buy a £6k elise (albeit sheddy) for the kind of money it would cost for a good mk1 donor plus you supply and fit......
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi jo, not sure i agree with the £6k pricetag? Roughly £2.5-£3k for the conversion so i am not sure where you are getting £6k from? Surely people would be converting the mk1 they already own?
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Thinking about that some more Jo, even if you went out and bought a mk1 to convert they are out there for under £1500 in good condition, some well under a grand... i make that around £4k all in including the mk1 if you did not have one to start with, confused by the £6k :eh:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
I agree the conversion is cheaper but i would save and spend 6K on an old elise
2.5 - 3k conversion
1.5 k mk1
4 - 4.5 k conversion mk1 - probably more expensive to insure than a std elise, maybe unreliable if compared to some (not yours) mk1.5's
plus ££ for suspension upgrades £400 and brake upgrades £? 200-400
=~£5k :think:
You asked for positive and neg comments:
I like the conversion idea in principle - good engine and nicely suited to the mk1, but value for money, i'd save a bit more and buy something off the shelf
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Jo i was after positives and negatives about the 2zz into mk1 swap, not "i wouldn't bother,instead i'd go out and buy a sheddy £6k elise" , how does that promote mk1's and this club? I am trying to move things forward with fresh ideas and modern conversions to keep these cars alive, sorry but "go buy an elise instead" is not what i would expect from a prominent Mk1 club member.
Hardly constructive in my opinion :-: and that attitude pretty much sums up why i don't post much on the mk1 club forum anymore.There are people who are genuinely interested in having a modern powerplant in a mk1.... if that is not for you then fine, but i would expect you to promote the mk1 club and not the elise owners club.
FYI Mk1 owners are here because they want the best from their Mk1, not an elise.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
How do Paul,
If I was going down the engine conversion route this, for me, would be the only route I would consider entertaining. However, I'm just about to buy a NEW corrola 'box off of Kev Crane, which I will mod the linkages on, for my car. This would mean I wouldn't be very keen to move away from the 4age engine unless the 2zz-ge bolts up to this gearbox.
Best of luck with it though and I'm sure you will get some takers.
edit: just read,in your earlier post, that the 2zz-ge will bolt up to a mk1 box. Now that I didn't know :idea:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi steve mate :wave: the good news is the 2zz should bolt up to a 4age gearbox by using the celica bellhousing bit.I know folk have used the 6 speed celica gubbins and hybridised the 4age bellhousing onto it to allow a 6 speed 4age package.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
I love the mk1 :+:
but its not worth spending that money on an upgrade IMO - simple :+:
I'd keep the mk1 (which i love in its current form and performance) AND have a sheddy elise :lol:
you just asked for opinions :angel:
what i'm not doing is slating the mk1, why would i slate a car i love, i'm just not convinced on value for money on the conversion
not detrimental to the club in any way, as we love mk1s :+:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
i think this is a fantastic idea, as i think the 2.0 t would be too much power for the mk1 and the 1.8 would make it up to modern standards, i have a friend with a company who run a team of lotus 2-elevens, they get through engines a fair bit each season. but they might have a source of second hand stuff. ill investigate :think:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Agreed, i think it's only a matter of time before we see this as a common option like the SC swap is.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
I bought my T bar that Paul put the Camry lump in for £300.00 & it had a super Floor & suspension mounts & just the rust in the wheel arches. I am sure Paul remembers it.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Yes indeed, one of the most solid rust free (underneath/chassis) shells we have ever seen, it was like new under it!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi paul
very interested in your 2zz-ge conversion :clap: :clap: could we use the 190 bhp and run with no cat :twisted: :twisted: what would that do for performance
thanks kev :wave:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
To be honest i think the 190bhp is the only 2zz available anyway? With no cat it should be 195bhp or maybe a little more at a guess.
Either way i think a 2zz mk1 would be a great conversion, not as "set your hair alight" as the v6 or 3s-gte swaps but far less intrusive for those wanting to keep it with the same characteristics as the 4age.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi paul
sounds good to me :+: will be coming up to you for a cam belt change soon we can have a chat then
thanks kev :wave:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Yep no problems at all kev, speak to you soon :+:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hiya... I too have been looking for a bit more poke from my retro rocket... I know that everyone harps on about the mk2 turbo being the best bang for buck but i do feel like the high reving thrill of the car would be lost a bit...
Hence ive been eyeing up the option of doing a 20v conversion, but, if the 2zz would be better performance, and less money than the mk2 engine, that would seem like the best option...
so... what would you assume (and i know this may be half a guess) would be the performance of the 2zz swap (could you guess on the bhp per ton and how does this fair against other conversions?)
And the other thing is, what kind of upgrade route is there for the engine, bolt on parts, cams, availability of superchargers? If there are available mods (due to the Elise) then surely this is another bonus...
Im sure im not the only one looking at this with keen interest...
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Paul, maybe you can answer this one for me. I recently bought a gearbox off of Kev, a C59 he bought some time ago and never used.
Having looked at this, the American market uses a C59 gearbox in a Matrix which uses the 1zzfe and 2zzge as it's range of engines. Am i right in thinking then the gearbox fitting pattern on this line of engines is the same as the 4a-ge?
It seems like it but any clarification would help.
Cheers
Steve
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
hi steve, the C59 is off the 1zz corolla so that has the same bellhousing pattern as the 2zz series celica engines (C60,63,64).Unfortunately the bellhousing pattern on the C59 and C60 gearboxes is not the same as the C series Mk1 gearbox, however by swapping the casings over and the input shaft bearing it is possible to get the C59/C60 to bolt straight onto a 4age.
It is advisable to also adjust the diff preload when doing this because obviously using shims from one half of the gearbox case may well throw it out of tolerance, but you could just get away with using both of the C59 shims, i'd say it will be fine because we do this a lot with the mk3 LSD fitments into Mk2 NA boxes by using the Mk2 shims.
So yes it is doable but needs a little work, you will also need to use Mk2 NA driveshafts with that set up, or a nice celica st162/182 supported shaft set up is the way i favour doing it to give you equal length shafts..... sorry probably overloading you with info here!
Hi benny, the 2zz will certainly let you retain the high revving nature that the 4age has, and it is 190bhp in stock form. It will be without a doubt much better than a 20v, i don't rate those engines at all, 153bhp and revs a bit higher, not worth the fuss really, so the 2zz will deliver so much more.It also has aftermarket support because of the elise connections and can be supercharged.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Sounds like my engine plans have changed then!!
one other thing tho, do you have a rough idea how much more the package would cost with the 6 speed? I really feel that the gearbox/engine combo would give stunning amounts of fun!!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
That would really depend on wether i could source a mk3 6 speed box or adapt the celica one to work.... certainly under £500 as a ballpark figure but i won't know until i try it.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
sounds really good...
I'll start saving my pennies (and throw in some overtime!) and fingers crossed i might be knocking on your door next year...
Im sure i wont be the only one!
Look forward to seeing the build when someone takes the plunge till then tho!!!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
No probs, i do think this will make a truly excellent mk1 option.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Just one more thing... (for now, im sure i'll think of more!)
Ive got a tintop, JDM with Aircon... could you do a conversion that keeps the aircon working? And if so, does that push the price up much??
Would hate to have redundant buttons! And even tho im in Scotland, the aircon is a fly feature!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Keeping the AC is a piece of cake :+:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Nice one...
Now all i have to do is convince my pocket to bend to my will and im in there!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Found write up HERE>http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2255550
the engine bay looks so amazing when its done!!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
sorry to keep harping on and that...
but im amazed (even considering the time of year) that no-one has jumped at this yet...
If im the first do i get a guinea pig discount???
:oops:
it'll be a 6speeder too if that seals the deal! :+:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Yes i always do the first conversion of its kind at a reduced rate, mainly because i learn a lot in the process too for the next one.I would have thought this was a hugely popular swap to do, a nice powerful modern replacement for the 4age, but then a lot of owners still love to keep it all original, which is fair enough.
Maybe in a year or two when we have done a few the word will get out.
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyTheW
tried to have a look but norton has told me that that site is a major threat!
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi Paul, I'm really interested in this idea. More modern technology/engine: good. more revs: good. less cash: always good.
when do you think you'll be in a position to start the first one?
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
Hi mate, that really depends on our current workload, we have a big shipment of v6 engines coming in that have priority at the mo, so i will need to sort everything out and work out the schedule over the new year.
Worst case would be a few months into the new year if you said you definately wanted to go ahead now, to give me enough time to source a decent front clip and all parts needed. :+:
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Re: Mk1 2zz-ge conversion interest.
spring would be good for me, I don't mind cycling or driving around in the mini while it is done once the weather starts drying out :)
what do you think about the brakes? I'm assuming stock brakes are going to be ok because it's not a stupid amount of power going in?